Curse

Personette · May 26, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

And if you actually checked ESRB's site for GW's teen rating, it indicates nothing about inappropriate language. Alcohol, violence, but not language.

You were making an argument that the rating denotes what MAY be, versus what IS. You said the makers of an R rated movie can choose not to use all kinds of R rated material - like gore - and that, likewise, the makers of Guild Wars could make a squeaky clean game with a T rating.

In fact, the rating denotes what IS - if it's an R movie, there IS some R rated material in it; and if it's a T for Teen game, there IS some teen-only material in it.

You are correct in pointing out the obvious: that the makers of an R rated movie are not required to include every kind of behavior that could merit an R rating. They can pick and choose. Ditto for games.

I'd like to see some more detailed guidelines about what exactly "strong language" is. I did discover that some of the GW games are cited by the ESRB for "mild suggestive themes" which I guess would cover some of the punny quest names (that Seamen quest is mild?) and skimpy costumes.

Without more specific guidelines we are at least somewhat in the dark. Here is what the MPAA says about language in a PG-13 film:

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A motion picture’s single use of one of the harsher sexually-derived words, though only as an expletive, initially requires at least a PG-13 rating. More than one such expletive requires an R rating, as must even one of those words used in a sexual context. The Rating Board nevertheless may rate such a motion picture PG-13 if, based on a special vote by a two-thirds majority, the Raters feel that most American parents would believe that a PG-13 rating is appropriate because of the context or manner in which the words are used or because the use of those words in the motion picture is inconspicuous.

By that rule, "Meet the Fockers" should have been an R film - it uses the word "Focker", though not in a sexual context, more than once. However, it's not - it's PG-13. So there must be some difference between the expletives that count as strong language and puns, homonyms, or just a simple obsession with an anatomy.

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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

The point was the word "Focker" could not be used freely in the title without a good reason; If the movie did not have a family named "Focker," then the MPAA wouldn't have allowed that word in the title.

Ah, so it sounds like you're talking about the title specifically, and not actual film? That's interesting, since clearly children who go to G or PG rated movies will be exposed to the title on commercials or at the theater - no doubt why the rules are stricter. Here, incidentally, is the quote from imdb:

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During production, the proposed title of "Meet the Fockers" was thought by the studio to be too vulgar. The spelling was briefly changed to "Meet the Fokkers", but that would have upset the franchise's continuity, so it was changed back.

It was the studio that thought it was too vulgar. Not the MPAA. And someone thought Fokker was less offensive than Focker? But the homonym is exactly the same.

This argument continues to work against you.

thedarkmarine · May 26, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

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Originally Posted by Glib

Sure it is, but then the words are neither actually ass nor hole...it's purely in your head that there exists similarity in meaning because of similarity in sound. I would never expect ANet to edit either the words thespian or masticate, and yet, because they sound similar to lesbian and masturbate I'm sure it will happen. The sidestepping of profanity/vulgar language happens all the time. Does saying Darn, Dang it,Cheese and Crackers, Fudge, Shoot, or Mother Sucker mean the actual words they are substituting? If they did, the FCC would be all over edited TV run movies. The sidestepping of vulgar language is a means of softening the peaker/writer's intent...It is commonly held as acceptable by most people.

It's not the words, but the semantics, the intent behind the name. By your argument, you would not have a problem with your student saying, "Mr. Glib likes ass wholes," and using your position on animal cruelty as a defense.

Murder's happen all the time too, so that excuse is void. Now, you say sidestepping is a way of softening the intent. I see it as trying to get by loopholes via technicality. It is acceptable by most people, but under what context? A quick joke? Fine. A permanent label? Hm...I don't know...

The string of words you've supplied all convey the same feeling as the strong language they replace, but I don't see them as attempts to say the actual words they replace. It's the fine line I draw between "fcuk you," and "screw off." (I do feel that Mother Sucker has crossed the line though.)

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OK...lessee here, a few hundred people dying recently vs. a few hundred thousand a few hundred years ago...hmmmm...OK, I'll buy it isn't a "fair" comparison...but no less detatched than your friend's story...It's not here, not now. I would have a similar reation to Emphasyma, Cancer, Brain Tumor, Lukemia, Systic Fibrosis, Car Wreck, Suicide, Blood Poisoning, Diabetes, Organ Rejection, CMV, Overdose and a number of other means of expiration as your friend might. I lost my brother, uncle, grandfather and a few friends and nearly my wife to this list...but I would never report someone for using them in their toon's name. My wife agrees...and also thinks "Bewbs" is hysterical. Maybe I'm just not hypersensitive about such things and beleive everyone should cater to me over benign words that may spark a bit of negative emotion.

Now you're being awfully narrow minded by forcing your standards on others. "Things like this doesn't affect me, so it affecting anyone else is being hypersensitive." For you, it might just be a bit of negative emotion. It may not be for others.

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I would categorize it as overly-sensitive. The disease takes out a family member and you are so overwrought by it you report someone...Anyone THAT sensitive to the word should seek counselling and probably not be playing video games where the objectives are usually based on mass killing.

You make it sound like reporting is a huge task that requires an essay and a petition. If that were the case, I would be more inclined to agree with your claim about over sensitivity. However, as of now, you're just not giving the benefit of the doubt.

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Actually, I misunderstood. I edited my reply above. I was talking in general terms of a T rating, not the reason GW specifically earned its rating. You are right, up until the post, I had only read the ESRB on the box and the general T rating (broad context) from the ESRB site.

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GW's rating? When did they start rating things? The ESRB rates games on content and I've posted it twice already...did YOU look it up?

EDIT: Sorry, misunderstood the statement...I was talking about ESRB rating in general to get a T rating, not what makes GW rated T...either way, my opinion that Bewbs is not "strong" language stands and that the general T rating should include alcohol and sexy underwear....maybe they would sell more games if they advertised it.

Guess what, GW's teen rating does refer to sexy underwear and alcohol: "Suggestive Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence." I think this point has justified ANet's position in having a clear conscience in forcing people to change names.

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He can't, they lopped of his head with it!

No...they...didn't.

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Actually, I firmly beleive that a name is a name and no matter its origin, should not be changed because someone else sees it as unsuitable. I had to bite back a laugh when a tsunami hit Phuc...not because of the tragedy, but at the news casters falling all over themselves trying to avoid saying "the F word" which they would not have been doing.

The one nice thing about language is that it evolves. Words lose and gain meaning all the time. I sympathize with your position, but I do not agree with it. What if you're parents are cruel and named you "Accident?"

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The MPAA, by the way, is a notoriously secretive, unreliable institution that does whatever they feel like with little to no actual oversite. I have very little respect for their beliefs and/or opinions, but that is another conversation all together.

I was citing it as a perfectly reasonable word that was considered inappropriate. The MPAA was one who thought so, as did the producers.

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Enjoying the debate BTW...always nice to have someone you disagree with willing td do it with civillity.

^^

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Originally Posted by Personette

It was the studio that thought it was too vulgar. Not the MPAA.

Try again dear.

Even so, point is someone thought a perfectly legitimate word could be inappropriate.

Sora267 · May 26, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

Try again dear.

Did you even read the information in the website you linked to? The person you quoted quoted something from the link you posted, which you then said was false while linking to a website which confirms what they said was true....

Taisayacho · May 26, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Way back when, in the only-proph days, my friend got a 24 hour for the name "Sexy Fish" or something similar.

Personette · May 26, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

I was citing it as a perfectly reasonable word that was considered inappropriate. The MPAA was one who thought so, as did the producers.

Try again dear.

Even so, point is someone thought a perfectly legitimate word could be inappropriate.

No, sweetie, you try again.

There are two comments about the TITLE of the film - one from the studio, the other from the producers which reads exactly as you suggested:

The MPAA would not allow the movie to use the title unless they found a family with the name "Focker".

Again: the title is a different matter than the actual content, because people of all ages are exposed to it. It implies a different set of standards - a much more restrictive one.

This does not read "The MPAA objected to repeated, inane exploitation of the name Focker for cheap laughs".

It does not read, "The MPAA considered the name Focker to be the equivalent of the expletive for which it is a homonym" - if they had considered the two equivalent, more than one use of the name would have meant an R rating. Instead, they get to use the word dozens of times.

Instead of falling under the category of "strong language", Meet the Fockers is written up for "crude humor." Crude humor is apparently considered appropriate for teens, even in excruciatingly large doses. The ESRB considers "crude humor" appropriate for ages 10+.

Glib · May 26, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Personette

Instead of falling under the category of "strong language", Meet the Fockers is written up for "crude humor." Crude humor is apparently considered appropriate for teens, even in excruciatingly large doses. The ESRB considers "crude humor" appropriate for ages 10+.

Where is the line between strong language and crude humor? Many of the banned names fit into the crude humor category, not strong language. Luv Fish Tacos, for example, expresses a fondness of an item served on many a menu across the West Coast gets banned because as a female elementalist it becomes "vulgar" but is it strong language? Can the reporter prove intent at crudeness or did their mind just go there while the namer just loves the food (personally I find them tasty). No F-word, no violence no abuse...and yet, bye-bye name.

There are tons of euphemisms for body parts...many meant to take the "edge" off of saying penis, vagina, rectum or breast...Kids are encouraged to say pee-pee, dinky, winky, hoo-hoo, boobies, poop, bungus and the like instead of more vulgar terms, yet these same words are banned in a T rated game when crude humor is considered part of the general atmosphere expected to be found in games of this rating.

While I agree that naming a character something this stupid imay be a bad idea, I don't think it should be bannable. Finding offense and reporting it is just another way for people to exert control over others in a non-confrontational way and feel as if they mad a difference in the world. Which they have not...it is not even a real world, it is anonymous and therefor will always breed stupidity...even in the minds of otherwise reasonable folks.

I guess it bugs me that it is so easy to wander away and never see another character in the game...How many times are you really going to see the toon you are reporting? A single time...twice...three times? A case made for harrassment usually takes several instances, yet if I don't like the word "Bewbs" I can report it on a single sighting because I don't think it's right in a game that is clearly rated to have potential for "crude humor"...how does this make sense?

To me, that just gives the overly sensitive (read: whiners) too much control over others who are not neccissarily doing anything wrong, given a reasonable interpretation of the rating.

Fug the Unwashed · May 26, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Maybe instead of punishing players for innocuos names through a three day ban, it would be more fair to have them have to change the name at login to play. I mean, if a reasonable person thinks the name Mmmmm Boobs fits a teen rating, given that "crude humor" may be expected, why not give ppl the chance to make the "correction" without the temp ban which may not actually be deserved? Not punishment for honest mistakes...yeah, only a rebel retard would pick that name, but if it's up for interpretation, should gray area names have the same penalty as obvious Phuh Queue type names?

EchoMoon · May 26, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

My "BF" recently just got suspended..for 72 hrs. for one of his toons being named " Pecker Checker ". (( He just played under my account during that time. )) We both feel...if you don't like someone's name...then "Don't look at it!!!

guevera verreuil · May 26, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

/agree with the game being rated T
also...teens these days...different from when i was a teenager.

i had an ele with the name bouncy b oo bs that got banned. i didn't think that was fair, but then again, what is in life? what's more ironic is that im a woman and i named the char based on the way it was animated. har har. i had it for 4 months before i had to delete her too. also, i registered on our alliance's vent with that name, people still call me boobs xD.

garethporlest18 · May 26, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glib

Snip

Yeah that thing about Fish Tacos...uhh Anet thinks having a quest called Sticky Situation with enemies callled Corsair Seamen is ANY WORSE than Fish Tacos? Which are a food? Come on Anet don't be stupid.

I think it's rare when someone gets offended by a name, they lie. Most people don't get offended at all, they use it if a person upsets them. Anet just assumes these people are getting offended. The name reporting is abused big time. Course you can say I'm assuming that they are not getting offended, which is true. But it's also a logical thought because we really just can't have that many people without a backbone playing this game.

Glib · May 26, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

It's not the words, but the semantics, the intent behind the name. By your argument, you would not have a problem with your student saying, "Mr. Glib likes ass wholes," and using your position on animal cruelty as a defense.

Actually, I would have no problem with "asps whole" or "asp holes" but they are not allowed to say "ass" unless directly referring to the animal in correct context. If they described me as being assinine while not agreeing with my opinion or because I was behaving stubbornly, again: no problem. While the sound is similar in asp holes, I think of it as a vipers' nest, which I would have to say, describes this thread rather well. As for liking actual assholes, maybe Fug

(love the avatar).

MrTickle · May 26, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

I've never been banned yet but I'm worried about my monk 'Sum Yung Tart' which I've played through all 4 campaigns and is nearly 2 years old.

Do they delete the char or do you just get to rename them? She has loads of armour & greens and used mainly as a mule or farming.

Can you request a name change?

Ju-On · May 26, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

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Originally Posted by Gattsu05

To all of you complaining about the "integrity" of the game (large breasts, alcohol consumption, etc.), how do you think it would be if they let all the names like Dildo Wielder and Beeg Bewbs Mcgee stay in the game?

Seriously? It wouldn't worry me in the slightest.

1. Get a sense of humour!
2. Get a life! You really take the time to report people for, in your definition, are inappropriate names?
3. Prudes like you need to take up old school board games, the online world is not for your delicate sensibilities.
4. lmfao....

Personette · May 26, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glib

Where is the line between strong language and crude humor? Many of the banned names fit into the crude humor category, not strong language. Luv Fish Tacos, for example, expresses a fondness of an item served on many a menu across the West Coast gets banned because as a female elementalist it becomes "vulgar" but is it strong language? Can the reporter prove intent at crudeness or did their mind just go there while the namer just loves the food (personally I find them tasty). No F-word, no violence no abuse...and yet, bye-bye name.

That's a good question - I'd like to see a more comprehensive answer from an official source. It seems to me that with something like "Focker" the difference is negligable.

It sounds like you may have gone to see that documentary, This Film is Not Yet Rated? It had some really interesting points about the MPAA discriminating against scenes depicting, in particular, female pleasure.

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Originally Posted by Glib

Kids are encouraged to say pee-pee, dinky, winky, hoo-hoo, boobies, poop, bungus and the like instead of more vulgar terms, yet these same words are banned in a T rated game when crude humor is considered part of the general atmosphere expected to be found in games of this rating.

I guess these people are really being punished for being obvious. The truth is that you can get away with expressing almost any sentiment, no matter how foul, if you were a bit more subtle about it.

thedarkmarine · May 26, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

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Originally Posted by Personette

It was the studio that thought it was too vulgar. Not the MPAA. And someone thought Fokker was less offensive than Focker? But the homonym is exactly the same.

From imdb:

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The MPAA would not allow the movie to use the title unless they found a family with the name "Focker".

Er...

And Sora of the Divine, you totally read those posts out of context. You could try again too.

I'll get back to you Glib in a bit. Want to quickly address these asps before I have to go again.

Evaine · May 26, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Have I ever had a character's name banned? No way. I personally don’t want characters with embarrassing names. That’s my preference though.

I think some players come up with salacious names to attract attention to themselves and/or to see how far they can go before they do get banned.

ectos taste nasty · May 26, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

lol, just another ****storm

thedarkmarine · May 26, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glib

There are tons of euphemisms for body parts...many meant to take the "edge" off of saying penis, vagina, rectum or breast...Kids are encouraged to say pee-pee, dinky, winky, hoo-hoo, boobies, poop, bungus and the like instead of more vulgar terms, yet these same words are banned in a T rated game when crude humor is considered part of the general atmosphere expected to be found in games of this rating.

However, at the end of the day, ANet chooses not to include such words in their T rated game. That's what it all comes down to.

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While I agree that naming a character something this stupid imay be a bad idea, I don't think it should be bannable. Finding offense and reporting it is just another way for people to exert control over others in a non-confrontational way and feel as if they mad a difference in the world. Which they have not...it is not even a real world, it is anonymous and therefor will always breed stupidity...even in the minds of otherwise reasonable folks.

Another difference of opinion. It is quite clear that a many of these stupid character names (not all) violates the eula. ANet could ban you forever, but they choose to give you a second chance after a small amount of time off. In addition, not all name change orders are preceded by a ban, as such is the Ebola case.

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I guess it bugs me that it is so easy to wander away and never see another character in the game...How many times are you really going to see the toon you are reporting? A single time...twice...three times? A case made for harrassment usually takes several instances, yet if I don't like the word "Bewbs" I can report it on a single sighting because I don't think it's right in a game that is clearly rated to have potential for "crude humor"...how does this make sense?

So, it boils down to, you think GW has this structural problem, and people should learn to live with it. I think that GW has this minor problem, and its a good thing for that general population can aide in reducing the problem.

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To me, that just gives the overly sensitive (read: whiners) too much control over others who are not neccissarily doing anything wrong, given a reasonable interpretation of the rating.

They have no control though! It's ANet that has control! Those people can just express opinions, and if they echo those of ANet, then ANet would do what they would've done anyways if they knew about it.

The irony is that the threads of the current topic are usually made by whiners from the other camp; the ones who are oversensitive about their right to absolute freedom.

Also, if there is no report system, then what about those names that are clear vulgar, even by your standards? What stops those from running wild?

I Is Special · May 26, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

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Originally Posted by thedarkmarine

The irony is that the threads of the current topic are usually made by whiners from the other camp; the ones who are oversensitive about their right to absolute freedom.

I find this to be insulting. I will not report your post.

thedarkmarine · May 26, 2008, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Na, I wasn't referring to you. You're special. :P